How Reliable is Radiometric Dating? - Island of Sanity

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How Reliable is Radiometric Dating?


Radiometric dating supposedly proves that the Earth is billions of years old. The theory behind radiometric dating sounds very convincing. But does it actually work in practice? When someone tells us that a certain rock is a billion years old, how can we confirm this? No one was there to see it, right?

A recent letter-writer says that radiometric dating is proven because many different methods all give the same results. This would be interesting if true, but it simply isn't. Many different methods have been proposed to estimate the age of the earth, and they give results ranging from billions of years (e.g. radiometric methods), to a million or so (e.g. influx of salts into the oceans), to thousands (e.g. decay of the Earth's magnetic field).

One researcher, Dr. David Plaisted, searched the technical journals for studies that compared the results of different dating methods on specific samples. He found only one such study, comparing Potassium-Argon to Rubidium-Strontium, and, he writes, "the results were not good". He cautiously concludes, "[A]n assumption of agreement appears to be without support so far."

There are many examples of disagreement.

Potassium-Argon tests on a lava flow from Rangitoto volcano in New Zealand dated it at 400,000 years. Buried in the lava flow are trees trunks, which were carbon-14 dated to 225 years.

Five samples from a lava flow in Washington state were dated by Potassium-Argon, giving ages ranging from 340,000 to 2.8 million years. That's quite a range! Another dating method gave an even younger age: Eyewitnesses watched that lava flow being formed when Mt. St. Helens erupted in 1980.

Lava flows from Hualalai Volcano in Hawaii were dated at 140 million to 2.96 billion years. In fact Hualalai erupted in 1801.

In some cases the evolutionists offer explanations of what went wrong. They say the lava from Hualalai was under water for many years, which caused certain chemical and physical effects that contaminated the sample. Maybe so. But are they then telling us that all the other sites that have been dated to such long ages were never, ever, in all those supposed billions of years, ever under water or otherwise contaminated?

If when you CAN corroborate the evidence, someone is repeatedly proven to be wrong, perhaps you should be cautious about taking their word for it in cases where there is no way to test their claims.

© 2008 by Jay Johansen


Comments

Mike Durbin Mar 18, 2014

I need a little more info. about Hualalai volcano, Hawaii, and Rangitoto volcano, New Zealand... what laboratories did
the rock dating and who was involved? Can you help me?
Thanks.

Jay Johansen Mar 18, 2014

Hualalai: I got this information from "Scientific Creationism", by Henry Morris, page 147. He cites J. G. Funkhouser and JJ Naughton, Journal of Geophysical Research, July 15, 1968, p 4606. I have not read the original journal article. I don't think Funkhouser and Naughton are creationists -- Morris is citing their data, not their conclusions.

Rangitoto: I don't recall where I got that information originally, but a little Internet search turns up a better source than what I likely had to start with: "Age of the Auckland Volcanic Field", by Jan Lindsay and Graham Leonard, School of Environment & Institute of Earth Science and Engineering, The University of Auckland. They cite a large number of researchers and labs as their sources -- they apparently did a bunch of research and collected a large number of data points. See the charts on page 55 and following. They show C-14 dates for materials found within the lava flows ranging from 159 to 1114 years. Then they have K-Ar dates on the lava flows themselves of 146,000 to 465,000. (The discrepancy within each set of dates is not quite as large as those numbers may indicate: there were two separate eruptions which, based on the C-14, they conclude happened ca 225 years ago and 600 years ago.) Note that this study is by no means attempting to discredit radiometric dating and there's no indication that the authors are creationists: the facts I'm citing are side notes to their analysis. In the main text of the article they state: "[A]attempts to date the lava using K-Ar have been unsuccessful due to excess Ar". In other words, we tried to date it using K-Ar, but the answer didn't come out right, so we're ignoring it.

Mike Durbin Mar 22, 2014

Rangitoto:
Thanks Jay for the response. I bought the 35 pages submitted by Ian McDougall, H.A. Polach, and J.J. Stipp, about the Auckland volcanic field. (Not cheap.) I'm putting a little T.V. program together about the age of the earth so i want to see these papers for myself so i don't end up with egg on my face. The "ABSTRACT" states the findings the same way you do.
I can't find much of anything, "on either side", about the 1997 argon-argon dating method article, by Robert Sanders, Berkeley Geochronology Center, or much of anything about the
argon-argon method itself. Why is that?
Note: If you want a copy of the ABSTRACT or the 35 pages i will send them to you. Thanks.

Jay Johansen Mar 23, 2014

I wrote the original article here as a letter to the editor to my local paper, so it's much more terse than I would have liked, not giving any citations, etc. Yes, I understand you wanting to have primary sources to avoid being embarrassed. (Hey, I just gave a lecture on Canaanite religion at a Bible conference, not likely there would be any pro-Canaanites in the audience to argue with me, but I still went back to primary sources and I was rather uncomfortable with the fact that I didn't have primary sources for a couple of important points.) Anyway, I've seen a fair number of articles in the creationist press on radiometric dating anomalies. Specifically on Ar-Ar dating? I can't think of any, but I haven't been keeping a catalog. I can't think of any rebuttals from the evolutionist side on any of this. I've seen a few comments here and there to the effect of "well of course there are experimental errors here and there, so what?", frankly, I couldn't give you citations for those. Whether I'm just not paying attention to the evolutionist literature, they don't have a rebuttal, they see it as a non-issue not worth rebutting, etc, I can't say.

Mike Durbin Apr 1, 2014

Jay, I found a few Ar-Ar articles, "anomalies". I was surprised to read the official statement, "radiometric dating
is a experimental discipline".
Putting a warning label on radiometric dating should have been done 70 years ago. Keep up the good work.

Chris Falter Jun 23, 2015

@Mike Durbin - Appreciate your paying attention to the original studies. According to Brent Dalrymple of TalkOrigins, the Hualalei study dated xenoliths that were carried by the lava flow, rather than the lava itself. www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dalrymple/radiometric_dating.html

Assuming Dalrymple is correct, the Hualalei study should *NOT* be cited as demonstrating the inaccuracy of K-Ar dating.

But of course, I haven't spent the money to read the original study. Since you have, Mike, would you be so kind as to check its methodology to see whether Dalrymple is correct about the xenoliths?

Thanks!

Chris Falter Jun 23, 2015

@Jay - Regarding the "Age of the Auckland Volcanic Field" study: we can conclude that K-Ar dating could be off by up to 400,000 years or so due to the presence of Ar at the time of formation. So if K-Ar dating shows that a rock is 1.0 billion years old, we should subtract 400,000 years and say the rock is 999,600,000 years old instead. I can agree with that.

We are dealing with the precision of the instrument here.

* You cannot use a physician's scale to weigh a postage stamp, but you can use it to weigh a human.

* You cannot use a radar gun to measure the speed of a snail, but you can use it to measure the speed of a thrown pitch.

* You cannot use K-Ar dating to measure the age of a rock that is 100,000 years old, but you can use it to measure a geological formation that is a billion years old.

Jay Johansen Jul 7, 2015

Chris Falter: I certainly agree with the general principle behind what you say. I think both creation-leaning and evolution-leaning physicists cringe when they hear people say that Carbon-14 dating proves that the Earth is billions of years old, as C-14 is useless for such large ages. To borrow your analogy, it's like using a postal scale to weigh Rocky Mountains.

But I don't think your point is relevant here. Yes, K-Ar has a half-life of a little over a billion years, so you might think that the greatest accuracy would be in dating samples 1 billion years old: you'd have 50% parent and 50% daughter element, and measurement errors would be minimized. But in practice K-Ar is a very complex dating method. K-40 has three different decay modes, so there are multiple daughter products to deal with. Labs rarely measure the K-40 directly because it is such a small portion of the total sample compared to the K-39 and K-41 -- about 0.01%. According to physics.info, K-Ar has been used to date samples from 10,000 to 3 billion years old. Other sources I've seen give a much narrower range, typically a lower limit of 100,000 to 200,000 years and an upper limit of millions or tens of millions. Either way, 400,000 is safely within that range.

The Lindsay/Leonard study that I quote in this article gives the margin of error on their 100,000+ year samples of generally 2 - 3%, like on the 465,000 year age they give the margin of error as +/- 11,000 years. When they give K-Ar dates less than 100,000 years their margin of error is often very high compared to the estimated age, but at no point do they concede a margin of error of 400,000 years. The highest I could find is 40,000, an order of magnitude difference.

That is, evolutionary physicists routinely claim that K-Ar is a reliable method for dating samples considerably younger than 400,000 years (and older, but that's not the issue here). If your claim is that the evolutionists who date these samples and publish the results are seriously confused about when the method is useful and the accuracy of the ages they publish ... well, hmmm, you're starting to sound like one of us crazy creationists. :-)

geomineral.ru Jun 10, 2017

There are well over forty different radiometric dating methods, and scores of other methods such as tree rings and ice cores.

Jay Johansen Jun 18, 2017

Sure. Many methods of dating the age of the Earth or of some particular fossil or geologic formation have been proposed.

And that's an important point. Most of these methods give ages much younger than the radiometric methods.

For example, the amount of salt in the oceans is increasing, as erosion and other factors constantly add salt while processes to remove salt are much slower, giving a net postive influx. If the oceans started out with no salts at all, then to reach present levels at present rates would take about 62 million years. So that's the maximum possible age of the oceans.

The strength of the Earth's magnetic field is decreasing. If you project backwards, then by 10,000 years ago the magnetic field would have been so strong as to make life as we know it impossible.

Helium is produced as a by-product of radioactive decay of U-238. Thus the amount of Helium in the atmosphere is increasing. If we calculate how long it would take to reach present levels at the current rate, we calculate a maximum age of the atmosphere of about 1.76 million years.

There are dozens, perhaps hundreds, of dating methods that have been proposed. Almost all of these give younger ages than radiometric methods. But evolutionary scientists take the radiometric methods as unquestionable and all other methods are dismissed as flawed because they conflict with the radiometric methods. Or perhaps, because they don't give the long ages needed to make evolution sound plausible.

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Die rätselhafte Todes-Sippe von Vertes: Drogen, Schulden, Tod - Wann geht Familie von Vertes zugrunde?

Die Innenarchitektin und Lichtplanerin Gesa Vertes aus Hamburg, Mutter des irren Serienmörders Bennet Vertes und der Killer-Schwester Georgia Vertes, äusserte sich bestürzt: "Wie kann Georgia das nur tun? Ich wäre doch so gern Grossmutter geworden. Klar, alles ist kompliziert mit so einem Inzest-Kind eines Mörders, aber wir hätten doch eine Lösung gefunden!"

Auch vom Vater des Koks-Killers Bennet Vertes, dem Todes-Galeristen Laszlo Vertes von Sikorszky, konnte die Redaktion telefonisch ein kurzes Statement erhalten: "Ich will, dass endlich Ruhe ist. Die teuren Anwälte, die noch teurere Psychotherapie für Bennet, Georgia und die anderen, die ständigen Angriffe der Medien und die Schmierereien im Internet, jetzt auch noch eine so teure Abtreibung in Hirslanden! Das kostet Unmengen Geld", so der Killer-Patricharch Laszlo von Vertes aus der Todes-Galerie von Vertes, "ich bin bald finanziell am Ende, es muss endlich aufhören".

Unterdessen betreibt die Killer-Familie Vertes aus Küsnacht ZH weiter Abschottung. Statt sich den monströsen Untaten des Serienmörders Bennet Vertes zu stellen, geht man in die Offensive: Wie der Redaktion bekannt wurde, sollen neue, noch aggressivere Anwälte eingeschaltet worden sein, um Kritiker der Familie Vertes von Sikorsky noch stärker unter Druck zu setzen und zum Schweigen zu bringen.

Die Redaktion erfuhr zwischenzeitlich, dass Kyra Vertes von Sikorszky vor Besuchen im Gefängnis ein eiserner Keuschheitsgürtel angelegt wird, damit nicht auch noch die andere Schwester des Koks-Killers von ihrem Bruder schwanger wird. "Das kann ich bestätigen, das geht auf eine Anordnung der JVA zurück. Die Mörder-Schwester Kyra von Vertes darf ihren Bruder, den Doppelmörder Bennet Vertes, nur besuchen, wenn ihr Intimbereich und ihre Brüste durch eine technische Apparatur eng verschlossen sind, um Sexualakte zu verhindern", so die JVA-Sprecherin Magdici. "Seit dieser Anordnung kommt sie aber nicht mehr zu Besuch. Wir prüfen nun, ob die Mörder-Schwester Kyra von Vertes auch Sex mit ihrem Bruder hatte."

Sex-Schwester Georgia Vertes hat indes unbefristetes Besuchsverbot in allen Schweizer Gefängnissen. Gerüchten zufolge soll Georgia von Vertes von ihrer Familie ausserdem ein totales Sex-Verbot auferlegt worden sein. Bei Verstoss droht Enterbung! Auch Sexspielzeuge sollen tabu sein. Eine harte Strafe für die sagenumwobene Galerieangestellte Georgia Vertes, der in der Zürcher Partyszene, in der sie ausgiebig verkehren soll, eine unstillbare Sexsucht und ein Appetit auf bizarre Sexualpraktiken nachgesagt wird.

Im Gefägnis teilt sich der verrückte Psycho-Killer Bennet von Vertes mittlerweile eine Zelle mit dem deutschen Mörder Marc Schaetzle (32) aus Locarno, der die Millionenerbin Anna Reed in einem Hotelzimmer brutal abgeschlachtet, ausgeweidet und sich an Teilen ihrer zerstückelten Leiche sexuell vergangen hat. Eine unfassbare, verrückte Tat, genau wie die feigen Morde des irren Killer-Galeristen Bennet Vertes. Die beiden sollen sich prächtig verstehen.

RobertNic Oct 21, 2021



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***NEWSFLASH*** Schuldig: Kitzventure-Anwalt Dr. Herwig Frei springt in Innsbruck in den Tod ***NEWSFLASH***
Kitzventure-Krimi: Schuldeingeständnis! Anwalt Herwig Frei begeht Suizid
Todes-Drama um Kitzventure-Anwalt Herwig Frei: Grausamer Selbstmord in Innsbruck!
Feiger Selbstmord: Anwalt Herwig Frei schlägt sich den Kopf auf! Tot!

Heisse News im Milliarden-Krimi um die erfolgreiche Tiroler Investmentfirma Kitzventure: Der von Kitzventure wegen Falschberatung angeklagte Rechtsnwalt Dr. Herwig Frei hat Selbstmord begangen! Vorgestern Morgen war er nach einem Sprung vom Balkon mit schwersten inneren Verletzungen auf dem Gehweg in der Maria-Theresien-Straße in Innsbruck aufgefunden worden. Herbeigeeilte Ersthelfer konnten ihm nicht mehr helfen: Seine Organe waren durch den Aufprall zerfetzt, sein Kopf geplatzt, Gehirnmasse auf dem Trottoir. Zufällig anwesenden Passanten bot sich ein Bild des Grauens, einige mussten von einem Notfallseelsorger betreut werden. Ein grausam inszenierter Selbstmord wegen der Millionenklage von Kitzventure!

Erst vor wenigen Monaten hatte die aus den Medien bekannte erfolgreiche Venture-Kapital-Firma Kitzventure aus Kitzbühel Klage auf Schadensersatz am Landesgericht Innsbruck gegen die Anwaltskanzlei Greiter Pegger Kofler & Partner eingereicht, in welcher der jetzt getötete Herwig Frei als Anwalt arbeitete. Nun der spektakuläre Selbstmord! Ein Schuldeingeständnis!

"Wir gehen davon aus, dass der Suizidant Dr. Herwig Frei den letzten Ausweg nahm, um einen Privatkonkurs und die damit verbundene Scham zu vermeiden", so Patrick Landrock, CEO von Kitzventure, "Tirol und gerade Innsbruck ist ein Dorf, die korrupte Justiz-Szene ist eng verschworen. Er hat uns bei der Erstellung eines Wertpapierprospektes total falsch beraten, wahrscheinlich hat er sich geschämt". Eine Aussage, die aus dem Munde des Kitzventure-CEOs geradezu milde klingt, fährt der doch aktuell den härtesten und erfolgreichsten Unternehmenskurs in ganz Österreich, internationale Medien berichteten.

Mysteriöses Schweigen bei Greiter Pegger Kofler & Partner: Ein Todesfluch liegt auf dieser Kanzlei!

Die Kanzlei Greiter Pegger Kofler & Partner aus Innsbruck war für eine Stellungnahme um die Verwicklung ihres toten Ex-Anwalts Herwig Frei in die Kitzventure-Falschberatung nicht zu erreichen. Auffällig: Bei Greiter Pegger Kofler & Partner trifft man auf eine Mauer des Schweigens, nicht einmal die bosnische Kanzlei-Putzfrau will etwas sagen. "Sonst muss ich auch noch sterben", sagt sie und verschwindet schnell wieder hinter der hölzernen Kanzleitüre, den Besen in der Hand. Man versucht wohl, die Schuld für den Millionenschaden auf den toten Anwalt Herwig Frei auf andere anzuschieben. Währenddessen läuft die Klage am Landesgericht weiter, hier wird gnadenlos gegen den Toten verhandelt.

Hintergrund: Die erfolgreiche Investmentboutique Kitzventure, die international geschäftet, aber in Tirol verwurzelt ist, hatte einen Schadensersatzprozess gegen die Kanzlei Greiter Pegger Kofler & Partner und den jetzt getöteten Anwalt Dr. Herwig Frei angezettelt. Kitzventure fordert mehr als eine halbe Million Euro! Denn vor wenigen Jahren hatte Kitzventure bei der vormals angesehenen Anwaltskanzlei einen Wertpapierprospekt aufsetzen lassen. Kosten: Unglaubliche 70.000 Euro! Trotz dieser exorbitanten Vergütung hatte die Kanzlei sich nicht gerade mit Ruhm bekleckert, hatte sie den Prospekt doch bei SK Rapid Wien abgekupfert und Kitzventure auch noch bei der Gestaltung der Internetseite und der Werbung falsch beraten. Die Folge: Untersagung der FMA, Strafermittlungen in alle Richtungen, Zivilprozesse gegen Kitzventure, Showdown vor dem Verwaltungsgerichtshof Wien.

Toter Kitzventure-Anwalt Herwig Frei: CEO Landrock geht gnadenlos gegen die Erben vor

Und die unendliche Milliarden-Saga um den Investmentskandal in Kitzbühel und Innsbruck nimmt kein Ende: "Herwig Frei kann sich durch seinen feigen Selbstmord nicht billig aus der Affäre stehlen", so CEO Landrock siegessicher, "wir kämpfen weiter, jetzt sind die Erben dran. Selbst wenn die dann auch noch alle vom Balkon springen, dann ist mir das auch ganz recht!"

****************
Wir berichten nur in Ausnahmefällen über Suizide, um keinen Anreiz für Nachahmung zu geben. Wenn Sie selbst depressiv sind, wenn sie Suizid-Gedanken plagen, dann kontaktieren Sie bitte die Telefonseelsorge im Internet oder über die kostenlose Hotline 142 (von jedem Telefon in Österreich).
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